One of the misconceptions people have about Quiet Light is that we do more e-commerce than content transactions. Fun fact, our top two transactions ever have been content and SaaS deals.
Our guest today, Bruno Bornsztein, is a web entrepreneur who has conquered the content domain via his two websites, Curbly, and Mandmade DIY. Bruno is what we like to call an “old school” entrepreneur, someone who successfully combines his own web development expertise with entrepreneurship. Equal parts content creator, developer, businessman, and design aficionado, Bruno got his start during the wild west days of the influencer platform. Nowadays, he’s in the process of launching a new SaaS product to make success more fluid for influencers.
Episode Highlights:
- The starting up of Curbly, the monetization, and the changes the site took on over the years.
- At what point the site started publishing sponsored posts for large companies and how these companies found him.
- We delve into the world of influencer marketing and how Bruno built a brand, rather than an individual, that then became the influencer.
- We discuss how influencers should pull back from the spotlight rather than build that personal brand that cannot operate without their personal daily input.
- The metrics that exist to measure the influencer impact.
- Bruno talks about his transition from a content site to building his Influencer Kit Saas tool and the phase the product is in now.
- The potential challenges in scaling The Influencer Kit quickly to meet market need.
- The target clients for The Influencer Kit tool.
Transcription:
Joe: Mark, one of the things that Ithink is a bit of a misnomer here about Quiet Light is people think that we domuch more e-commerce physical product business brokering than we do content. Andin fact the largest transaction I've ever done, the top two have been contentand SaaS. And I understand you had a friend of yours, Bruno from one of yourMastermind groups on to talk about both that … just both content and a new SaaSbusiness that he's got from his own content site. Can you chat about that?
Mark: Yeah of course. Yeah, Bruno … theguy is an old school entrepreneur and I'm doing air quotes right now for oldschool because in the world of the Internet is there an old school yeah? But inmy opinion, he's old school because the guy started out developing his ownstuff. When he started his first business Curbly.com which is a homeimprovement blog. He developed the code himself, designed everything, and then hewas writing the blog post as well. And now that he's transitioning into a new SaaSproduct called InfluenceKit he's once again developing the code on the backendand doing pretty much everything on his own and lives in that world of webdevelopment plus entrepreneurialism. A super, super smart guy when it comes tothat side of it. So he and I actually … this podcast is really just he and Icatching up online and walking down memory lane. But there were a couple of thingsthat came out of this that I thought were fascinating. And one thing that Ilove about his business Curbly, and there's a couple of other guys that Italked to here local to me in the content world, is they're treating theirbusinesses like influencers and they actually talk about it as influencermarketing. And I don't know about you Joe but I … when I think of an influencerI think of that 21 year old model wearing sneakers and putting them onInstagram and getting paid just to post wearing those sneakers or is just like thatright? The personality based influencers. But what these guys are doing is theyhave their blogs which are completely irrelevant to their personality and I'm not… calling it a blog might be a little bit meaning because it has so much morecontent than that but these sites are influential. They have lots of followersfor what they're doing and large companies are coming to them and paying them touse their products and write about those products through to their sites. Sowhen you look at a content site we often think well how do you monetize that?Well there is AdThrive, there's Google AdSense, and maybe you charge for advertisingbut these guys are generating quite a bit more money by getting these sponsoredposts. So Bruno and I talked a lot about that. We talked about how did he getinto this in the first place with these sponsored posts, how did he attractsome of these larger advertisers which are obviously paying quite a bit to havethese sponsored posts. But then we talked about his next venture which isgetting into that SaaS base. He realized that these companies that were payinghim to do these sponsored posts, they wanted good metrics. They wanted to knowhow many people were clicking on the post and viewing them, how many peoplewere sharing these posts. And so he develops offer internally for thatreporting, now he's developing a full on SaaS product and we talked about howdo you grow a new SaaS business the right way because everyone thinks … and I'msure you've seen this Joe in the SaaS community, you kind of have this idea ofall right you create your product, get the right fit, and then just scale,scale, scale, scale, scale, right? Well, not always right? And he wants to makesure that he scales the right way and has a really good product market fit.
Joe: Yeah I think doing it slow anddoing it right is much more important than trying to get big … too big too fastbecause you make mistakes and lose good customers along the way because they'llgo somewhere else. I love the sounds of this because as you said most of thecontent sites that we've brokered are using AdSense and AdThrive and things ofthat nature. Even the largest one that I did was and there's not a whole lot ofsponsored posts that are driving revenue. So I think that's fantastic and I lovethe off shoot of an entrepreneur telling his story or her story about how theyhad another business, in this case, the SaaS product to serve those customersthat were doing sponsored posts. So I think it's great. Let's go to it.
Mark: Hey Bruno thanks for joining me.I really appreciate you taking the time here for a quick conversation. You andI are local to each other. We meet up once every few months with a couple ofother guys and just talk shop so it's kind of weird to be talking to you.
Bruno: I know we should almost just gettogether in the same spot, right?
Mark: That would have been good planningon my part and you know I don't do necessarily great planning all the time. Sowe have a little tradition here at the Quiet Light podcast where we have ourguest introduce themselves. We like to say it's because you know yourselfbetter than I do but really it's just because I don't do show prep so—
Bruno: Sure. Guess what I didn't do anyshow prep either so I think I could probably introduce you better than me. Somy name is … as you know my entrepreneurial, Bornsztein. I'm a local St. Paulguy like you are. And my background is in publishing online and webdevelopment. So I'm really a web developer who got into running digital contentsites for a long time. So what that looks like is I launched a blog called Curbly.comin 2006 and another blog called ManMade DIY in 2010. I ran those for 10 yearsor more and in the last couple years I've been focusing on a new project calledInfluenceKit which is a Software as a Service product that's targeted atdigital influencers, content creators, basically people like who I used to be.
Mark: Right now you come from this kindof old school or what I consider to be old school Internet entrepreneur. And Iused to fall in this category. The first business that I built online, I builtthe code and I built it in Pearl if you can believe that and I didn't know alick of code but I figured it out. You're still doing that to this day though,right? I mean like InfluenceKit it's a SaaS product you're building; we'll talkabout that in a minute. You're doing most of the development on that.
Bruno: Yeah I'm the lead developer for InfluenceKit.I was also lead technical person for my content sites which was good and bad. There'supsides and downsides to being technical like that. I like you, learned to do alot of this stuff a long time ago when the way that you were to do webdevelopment was usually do source. So a lot of things I learned was just bylooking at another site, looking at the source, trying to pick apart how itworked. Fortunately, that process has gotten a lot more easier now so there's alot more resources out there for people to learn how to become web developers.But yeah I definitely like being involved in the technical side. I think thechallenge for me is figuring out when to disengage from that and how much Ishould be involved and how much I need to try to delegate. So that's definitelysomething that I'm working on.
Mark: Yeah. Alright so I want to startout and I want to break this conversation into two parts, I want to talk about InfluenceKitand what you're building there in the SaaS realm but I want to talk also about Curblyand ManMade DIY is that right? Okay. You and also I know some of the other guysthat we know have a model with their content sites. I think a lot of peoplewhen they hear content sites are just thinking okay I'm going to put somethingup. I'm going to put on pass a bad network and just kind of run from there butyou guys do quite a bit more. Tell me a little bit about starting up Curbly andmaybe the beginning story of that and then what its primary means ofmonetization has been over the years.
Bruno: Yeah it's actually kind of an interestingstory because it wasn't really intended to be a blog. The way Curbly came aboutwas this: I was doing freelance web development; I took a contract building asocial network, this was in 2005. This was before Facebook was publiclyavailable to everybody. You still had tohave an EDU address to get in. And this network that we built was intended tokind of like compete with that in some sense. After that project was done I hadsome time on my hands, a little bit of money saved up, so a friend of mine andI decided to build something and being the sort of non-strategic person that Iam we just kind of … it was a little bit random; I had bought a house, I wasworking in my house that was kind of an area that interested me so somehowwithout a whole lot of forethought we came on this idea of a social network forhome improvement. The idea that Curbly was meant to be was a social network UGCsite … User Generated Content site that all was focused around the home, design… I'm remodeling my kitchen here's pictures of what I want to do, I'm lookingfor ideas for my bathroom does anybody have some? It sounds a lot like a siteyou've probably heard of which is House. House is that. I think we wanted Curblyto be House, we just didn't really know it at that time. So what ended uphappening was Curbly sort of organically transitioned into something else. Whenwe started the site we built it really quickly in about six weeks, the MBP ofit. And the first thing was well we don’t have any content on here how arepeople going to want to like join this social network when there's nothingthere. So we just posted for it; freelance writers on Craigslist and had peoplestart kind of seeing content. And that was not because we wanted to be apublisher or a media company but because we just wanted something on the site. Butover the first three or four years it just kind of … I realized that there wasa business model there and that was easier actually than trying to become House.And for a variety of reasons turning into House just like didn't happen. But I learnedthat actually there was a way of generating high quality content for areasonable price using freelancers and in monetizing that. So yeah over thecourse we were really lucky with Curbly. I think in our first month we wentfrom zero to 250,000 patrons a month.
Mark: Wait, wait halt. What? How didyou do that? Was it all organic SEO or were you keying in on other—?
Bruno: No it was luck. We got to belucky, we got on Dig, we got on … remember Dig?
Mark: I remember Dig. I got Dig to thefront page maybe twice in my life.
Bruno: We got on Dig, we got on a fewother things; Life Hacker it was a big blog back then and they posted a link toone of our project that somebody posted. Yeah, it was just lucky. I talk aboutthis a lot … like sometimes if you would ask me at the time in November orDecember 2006 after Curbly had been live for two months like how things weregoing I would've been … I would think I would have said uhh I don’t know, it's okaynot great. And I just think I talk to a lot of like younger entrepreneurs aboutthis a lot which is that at the beginning it's really hard to know whetheryou're succeeding or failing especially if you don't have any experience. Sothe way I'd phrase that is success or failure look the same a lot of times whenyou're just starting out. And it's really about experience and context. So atthe time, our goal was to build House, right? And so we wanted 250,000 users tosign up to Curbly because that's … active users was the metric we were lookingat. And because we didn't have that, because we weren't seeing that it was kindof like what are we doing wrong? It's not working. Not really appreciating thatwe had actually been really successful in another way that we didn’tunderstand. So I think for anybody who's… is entrepreneurial but maybe hasn't done a lot of things before just rememberthat you maybe … it may be very difficult to disentangle whether you'resucceeding or failing you just don't … you might not have enough experience toreally know the difference.
Mark: Yeah I know with Quiet Light itwas the same thing. For the first five, six, seven years of Quiet Light I didthe same thing and people would ask me like well what are your plans and I'mlike I don't know I might just make a boutique and not really do much more withit or I might just kind of wind it down over the next few years. But I justkept kind of going and going and going and it wasn't until I really went tohire Jason on initially, Jason Yellowitz, that I was kind of like there mightactually be something here that I wasn't expecting. But you're right, successand failure do look the same. At the beginning at least they can look the same.When did you start taking on these sponsored posts and just to be clear foreveryone listening you do have like AdThrive and stuff like that that youmonetize through but a big bulk of your revenue is coming from gettingsponsored posts from major companies like Home Depot and other large companiesthat are looking at your traffic, at your audience and saying we want thataudience so we're going to pay you to test this product or to be able tofeature this product in one of your DIY stuff. When did you start making thattransition?
Bruno: Yeah 2009 was the very firstsponsored thing that we ever did. So that was very early on. It was with afabric company who I won't name but it was kind of a failure for a variety ofdifferent reasons. But it was the first time we got paid just to create contenton behalf of a brand. And then it ramped up. So I would say in 2009, 0% of ourrevenue was sponsored content or influencer marketing [is what it's called nowand 100% was … you know the rest about probably 95% was programmatic displayads and the rest was affiliate links. And then back then it was even okay to dotext links. That quickly went sour but there was a period where it was okay tohave text links on your site. And then probably by 2016, 50% of our revenuebecame sponsored content. So it did sort of take a little while to ramp up. Andit took a while before we started seeing interest from established brands andagencies. But definitely by 2012, 2013 you are starting to get pitches from PRagencies, brands, ad agencies that were interested in partnering with you totalk about their products.
Mark: So what changed for thoseagencies to start recognizing you? Did you have to do outreach for that or wasit really just them picking up on the metrics that you guys were supporting atthe time?
Bruno: You know I think a little ofboth. I definitely started doing … being proactive once I saw that there was anopportunity to make real money there. And so definitely being proactive,reaching out to people even just replying, you know we always got … as any kindof publisher, you're always going to get a lot of press releases and inquiriesand people that want you to talk about their thing. So by proactive, I evenmean just replying to those and saying like hey you know we're not necessarily goingto cover this product this month but if you're interested in sponsored contentwe have these opportunities. So just being like a lot more responsive and offeringthat. I think on their side they didn't really start seeing metrics until muchlater. Even today a lot of influencer marketing happens with very little metricreporting which is something that InfluenceKit is trying to change. But I don'tknow that it was that they started seeing big metrics I think it was that thepeople that were working in those organizations were more digitally native. Likethey understood that landscape more. In 2009 I mean I … in 2009 I had peoplewho didn't know what a blog was. There were still people who are like what's ablog, why would I … how do you make money on it, how would you … why would acompany pay to have their content on it or whatever? By 2016 that wasn'thappening anymore. Everybody knew what a blog was. Everybody knew what socialmedia was. And so the idea that a brand would want to communicate with youraudience just made more sense. They understood that like okay blogs are a realthing. They have a real audience. They're communicating … they're able to communicateyour message and help you get your branding out there. And so I think it justbecame a little bit easier to convince them of that.
Mark: Yeah it reminds me of … do you rememberDarren Rowse from ProBlogger?
Bruno: Yeah.
Mark: He was kind of the big guy whowas making all the push of saying you know what these blogs you can actuallymake a lot of money with them.
Bruno: Yeah.
Mark: A bit at the forefront of thismovement. We're getting in this weird, wild world of influencer marketingsomething which I know very, very little about personally. And I think one ofthe interesting observations here … and I'm sure a lot of people listening arekind of like well yeah, of course, Mark just kind of get with the program but it'sthe idea that I think influencers I think that Instagram person, right? Up onInstagram on and it's the person themselves and they're making sure that allthe pictures have the same colors in them and fit the 3 by 3 matrix that theywant to have so it looks all nice. But Curbly itself was the influencer in thisin this situation.
Bruno: Right.
Mark: So you built a brand that was aninfluencer.
Bruno: Yeah. Yes. So Curbly always was …Curbly never had a … it was never a personality driven site and that helped usin some ways and hurt us in some ways. But yes in our case it was much moreabout the site than any individual person contributing to the site. Because oursite was driven by people like freelancers and a few staff people that werecreating the content. But in general yeah there is much … you do seem more oflike the individual sort of pseudo celebrity influencer although there is a lotmore out there than just that. There are a lot of sites out there that aren'tso tied to the individual that's running them that's really more about thecontent that they create and the audience that they are able to pull together.
Mark: Yeah [inaudible 00:18:39.7] anythingabout like the other guys who are now over [inaudible 00:18:42.4], right? Totallythe same sort of thing where they can do that and be a full blogger pro as wellright and all the brands that he and Lindsey have as well which is soinfluential for what they do.
Bruno: I think a lot of bloggers anddigital content creators that I talk to this is a topic that comes up becausein terms of selling sponsored content it can be easier if you are sort of aknown personality. But in terms of actually having that be your business not …first, not everybody wants to do that because it is difficult to have … to bethat kind of an influencer you really have to expose so much of your personallife and really be vulnerable and that's not for everybody. Not everybody wantsto do that. And then just from a … strictly from a sort of business strategypoint of view, it's not always smart to make the business so reliant on you.You may be a huge Instagram influencer bringing down a lot of money throughyour influencer contracts but what do you do when you want to sell thatbusiness? That's a really hard business to get out of. It's a really hardbusiness to cut back because if you want to say like scale back your work oryou have a family or a kid who's going to take over that role? So I have talkedto a lot of those types of influencers about like how can you sort of start topull yourself back. How can you supplement your business and make it a littlebit more sustainable and not so reliant on you as a person?
Mark: Yeah absolutely. That's the sameadvice that we would give anybody out there is that I totally get the appeal ofa building a personal brand. And I think a lot of people start with that inmind. Like I'm going to build a brand around myself, I'm going to be thecelebrity. But then you get to the point where like this is a lot of work andI've been growing it for five years and I'm tired of posting my life for thepublic to see every single day and so how do you convert that over to an actualbusiness? It can be done and I've seen a few cases where people have done itbut it's a process.
Bruno: It is and I just think it'ssomething that … you know because so many of these businesses do start off ashobbies or side projects it's not something that people think about right awaybut I think it is important to think about. You need to start thinking about itas a business, building a team that can support you. If you need to be the faceof the brand okay that might be fine as long as you are thinking about it andI'm also thinking about how that might affect your ability like you said tosell a business or change your involvement in the business.
Mark: Yeah. Alright, let's talk alittle bit about the influencer marketing side of it and the metrics and justkind of moves into what you're doing now with InfluenceKit. You said ityourself there's not a lot of metrics that were necessarily expected from thepeople or even deliverable for the people that were paying for these sponsoredposts. What have you done there and maybe through Curbly or that you just kindof learned over the years that's really helpful for somebody paying for asponsored post to start to key in on in terms of those metrics.
Bruno: Yeah I mean really where thiscame out of was like I said around 2016 we started doing a lot of sponsoredcontent. And the first problem we had was just producing it efficiently. Noteven reporting on it but just like honestly making sure that we did everythingwe promised we would do. I mean I know it sounds kind of silly but when you'redoing … I think that we were probably doing three blog posts a day on Curbly,we're doing something like four or five sponsored projects or campaigns a monthon Curbly. That's just a lot of moving parts. Like did we … are we supposed to doInstagram for Home Depot and how many pins were we supposed to do and what wasthe blog post supposed to include and is it cap is it the Home Depot or justHome Depot? I mean these are all little details but it makes of a differencewhen you start working with those brands because they expect a level ofprofessionalism and you want to deliver that. So that was the first problem itwas like okay we just don't have a good system for this. And that's kind of wherethe precursor to InfluenceKit came. It was just an internal tool that I builtto help our team. Just to help everybody keep on the same page, what we have todo, when is it due, did we do it; simple right? And we used that. We used thattool for a long time. We used it both for our sponsor content but also for oureditorial planning. It was great. It was really helpful. Then at 2017, 2018 Istarted thinking like man, we're just not doing a very good job of showingthese sponsors their ROI of what we did for them. Like they're paying us money,we're getting good deals, we're getting as much money as we think we should begetting, we're creating this really good content but that's kind of where itstops. And I realized that that was a weakness. And so then I started lookingat well how can we report, how can we go back and report on this? Doing itmanually sucks and I'm somebody like if I do something twice I never want tohave to do it again. Like once I've done something twice I'm like okay I shouldbuild something. So that's where InfluenceKit came out of. And it really justlets you automate the reporting piece of that process. So that for us, whenwe're doing, say four sponsored campaigns a month each of those campaigns mighthave four or five separate deliverables; things that we have to deliver back tothe brand and report on. That's 20 different things. We can just dump those onto InfluenceKit and send the brand a report. So yeah I mean that's kind ofwhere we're at now. The industry as a whole is really kind of still up in theair, people are starting to ask for a lot more metrics but not all. And that'skind of part of my mission with InfluenceKit is. I want to see every bloggerdoing this. I think it's to their benefit and I think that the biggest benefitis going to be when the industry realizes that there is reporting on this stuffthey're going to start opening the floodgates. And by that I mean there's goingto be a lot more money coming in and available to do this kind of stuff becausethey can actually measure the results.
Mark: Let's talk about InfluenceKit …and I love the transition here. You've been doing content, sponsored posts, allthese and then internally like you said if you do something twice you want tobuild a tool for it and you started building the tool and it starts evolvingand the next thing you know you have on your hands what could easily become a SaaSapplication which is what you are really focusing on right now. So you justfinished an [inaudible 00:25:03.5] you just finished a kind of an introductorylike get in the door sort of program with InfluenceKit for a limited number ofpeople and you're in the testing stage with them right now is that right?
Bruno: Yeah so we're essentially in a sortof like a pre-launch phase right now we're letting in a very limited number of people.And that's really … that's not because you know we're snooty or anything it'sjust there's we're a very small team. It's myself and two other co-founders. AndI think that we want to get it right. We're trying to figure out and I thinkall SaaS apps probably deal with this but what's the growth rate that weactually think we can achieve and we actually can support. I think that theremight be a little bit of a misconception that you just like want to grow asfast as you can as soon as you can like just grow, grow, grow, grow. I don'tknow but I don’t want to do that you know. I want to grow this business at arate that is sustainable that we can actually keep up with. I don't want to beworking nights and weekends right now. So yeah we are … where we are is we'reletting people in. We're kind of testing out the product with them makingimprovements and changes based on early customer feedback and then figuring outokay now what? Like we think we have product market fit, we spent about sixmonths kind of convincing ourselves that that's the case and now it's like okaywell how do we figure out how to grow and like I said at what rate we want to tryto grow at.
Mark: So a couple of questions that cancome to mind here, I'll ask the easier one first and that is you talked aboutnot wanting to necessarily just grow as fast you can, scale as fast as you can.What are some of the restraints that you're seeing that if you were to open itback up and … our of millions of listeners are listening to this podcast andthey start knocking on your door and they're like hey we want in Bruno, we wantin. What are some of the challenges that you guys would have in scaling quickly?
Bruno: Oh man I would say first of alllet's just back up and obviously it would be a great problem to have that millionand millions of people—
Mark: It's a good problem to havemillions of listeners as well.
Bruno: You know I'm not like that andso I don't want to just make that assumption. Obviously, we need to work reallyhard still to even have that problem. But what are the scaling problems? Ithink the first scaling problem would be people. SaaS apps at least ours, Isuppose I should speak for everyone but ours are still pretty heavily dependenton people. You really need to support people, you need customer support, youneed onboarding. There's still a lot of time that goes into it and so thatwould be the first problem. Then with that comes a bunch of other problems likescaling an organization so that you're building … yes, you're building aproduct but you're also building a company. And in some sense, the company islike the more important product because if you can build a good solidorganization then you'll do other good things and good products will come outof that. So we're really trying to be conscious of that like okay if wesuddenly had to hire three customer support people how would we do that? How wouldwe train them? How would we all stay on task? So I think scaling up peoplewould be a big constraint. From a tech point of view for sure, there are somethings we'd run into as well. InfluenceKit, in particular, relies on a lot ofAPI's so … and for the non-technical people that just means we have to go outand grab stats from a bunch of different sources; Facebook, Instagram, GoogleAnalytics. All of that takes server time. All of those API's have rate limits.Whenever you're building software you know doing something at a small scale andthen just like growing it to a bigger scale is not as easy as just … it's notlike we multiply things linearly. Things get way more complicated, way moredifficult to debug. And that's not to say that I'm not excited about solvingthose problems; I am. But yeah I want to do it in a sane way. I think if wewere to suddenly add … if we were suddenly to triple our user base like in amonth I would be spending a lot of late nights doing things that I don't wantto be doing.
Mark: I totally understand that. Buildingthe organization side I think is really important. Whenever you're scalinganything at all having that foundation to be able to scale on is crucial becauseyou will just completely buckle under the weight of growing rapidly. Who's theclient for InfluenceKit? Who are you trying to target? Obviously, digitalcreators would make sense but it's not just mom bloggers.
Bruno: So we think of our customer as professionalbloggers. I know that when we started out you kind of mentioned when you thinkof influencers you think Instagram and for sure you know that's legit but as wetalked about and we talked about this a lot who we can picture as our customerit's somebody whose primary platform is content creation on a website that theyown and their social platforms are supplementary to that. And when I sayprofessional I mean like if they're making their living off of this, likethey're supporting their family. They might even have an employee or two. Welook at it anywhere from there up to what you might consider more like a smallmedia organization; a site that has five or 10 or 20 employees. Beyond that,you don't think about that really as our market so much because at that scalethere are other tools for those people and you don’t really want to swim inthose waters. So that's really who we think about and the interesting thing isthat we've started hearing from a lot of agencies and brands about this. Reallynot our plan but what's happening is influencers are sending reports to theirsponsors; the people that are paying them and then we're hearing from themsaying we could use this. A great problem to have, it's a little bit like of anexistential mini crisis for us because we're all in front … we come from thisbackground, we're bloggers, we set out really with a mission to build a tool tohelp empower people like us and we don't want to just like pivot and startserving a completely different market at the same time. I mean when you havepeople asking to use your thing and who wanted to pay you, you need to listen. Sowe're trying to navigate that and see how we can do it.
Mark: Alright that sounds like a reallygood problem to have and sounds as well like we maybe pivoting down the roadinto matching influencers as well. Not to plan your path for you but it justseems like a natural extension that might be happening as well. Cool. Well, Ireally appreciate you coming on the podcast here talking about some of thesethings and I think we probably could have broken this up into two because justthinking about all the questions to deal with on the sell side. If I askanother question now we'd go on for 15 more minutes.
Bruno: Okay.
Mark: So I'm going to stop it now andI'm going to say I want to have you back to check in as you get past that kindof first initial enrollment and talk about how things have all been in thisinfluencer space. I love the idea and just thinking about influencers outsideof the Instagram model, thinking about it more in terms of a brand and just kindof this story is … well, it's fantastic so thanks so much for coming on.
Bruno: Alright. Yeah thanks for havingme. I'd be glad to come back and chat with you here on that episode.
Mark: Alright. Looking forward to meetup with you. See you again soon.
Bruno: Alright sounds good. Thanks,Mark.
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